Is there progression between kingdoms?
Question
Gramps,
Where in the scriptures or modern day teachings does it explain that there is no progression between kingdoms? For example, at judgment if a person is in the Terrestrial Kingdom can this person advance to the Celestial Kingdom?
Nathan
Answer
Nathan,
I’ll start with a cold hard fact: Final judgment is final. That is tough for some people to accept. But it’s the truth.
Who has talked about this? Multiple prophets have declared it so. And Elder Bruce R McConkie has declared the progression between kingdoms doctrine to be one of “The Seven Deadly Heresies.” The primary established doctrine that supports this is that our resurrected bodies are of a certain type.
There are some people who have supposed that if we are quickened telestial bodies that eventually, throughout the ages of eternity, we will continue to progress until we will find our place in the celestial kingdom, but the Scriptures and the revelations of God have said that those who are quickened telestial bodies cannot come where God and Christ Dwell, worlds without end. –George Albert Smith (Conference Report, Oct 1945, p 172 – referring to D&C 76:112) emphasis added.
We learn that the bodies in which we are resurrected determine where we are to remain for eternity. The bodies themselves do not grow or evolve or increase in glory beyond the kingdom to which they are assigned.
After a person has been assigned to this place in the kingdom, either in the telestial, the terrestrial or the celestial, or to his exaltation, he will never advance from the assigned glory to another glory. That is eternal! –Spencer W. Kimball (Miracle of Forgiveness pp 243-244)
It is from these revelations which recite that resurrected beings come forth with different kinds of bodies [D&C 76; D&C 88:16-33; 1 Cor 15:35-58] that we learn a few of the many revealed reasons why there is not and cannot be progression from one degree of glory to another after the resurrection. –Bruce R. McConkie (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary 1: 196)
It has been asked if it is possible for one who inherits the telestial glory to advance in time to the celestial glory.
The answer to this question is, NO!
The scriptures are clear on this point. (D&C 76:112).
Nothwithstanding this statement, those who do not comprehend the word of the Lord argue that while this is true, that they cannot go where God is “worlds without end,” yet in time they will get where God was, but he will have gone on to other Heights. –Joseph Fielding Smith (Doctrines of Salvation 2:31
Beyond it being a false belief it is a dangerous belief.
This is worse than false! It is an evil and pernicious doctrine…. It causes them to say: “God is so merciful; surely he will save us all eventually. If we do not gain the celestial kingdom now, eventually we will, so why worry?” It lets people live a life of sin here and now with the hope that they will be saved eventually.
The true doctrine is that all men will be resurrected, but they will come forth in the resurrection with different kinds of bodies… The body we receive in the resurrection determines the glory we receive in the kingdoms that are prepared. –Bruce R. McConkie (The Seven Deadly Heresies; BYU, 1 June 1980)
You see, Nathan, the primary reason some would want to hold onto this false belief is no different than those described in Nephi’s prophecy of the last days.
7 Yea, and there shall be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die; and it shall be well with us.
8 And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.
9 Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark.
10 And the blood of the saints shall cry from the ground against them. —2 Nephi 28:7-10
He prophesied that such false doctrines would abound in the last days. That the devil would rage in the hearts of men. How often do we realize that such doctrines can creep into the Church of Jesus Christ? This is why we need to listen to the words of the prophets rather than the words of our neighbors when determining truth from error.
We have established the fact that it is a false doctrine. We’ve shown the applicable scriptures. And we’ve provided the interpretation of modern prophets. These were doctrinal declarations during official public addresses and General Conference itself. Then they were repeated in the published works of the individual authors. But those thoughts and doctrines were repeated from scripture and from the official sources as well.
Now, many who cry about the mercy of God who still deny that this is a false doctrine may wonder “why would a merciful God condemn someone for all eternity based on so short a life as we have on this earth?”
My first question to them would be: How long a time would you want? Any finite amount of time is brief when comparing to eternity. So, how long is long enough? The Lord already tried giving us longer lifespans before the flood. That didn’t work out so well. He explained to us that our longer lives simply gave us more time to do more evil. I’d say it was an act of mercy to shorten our lives so that we didn’t fall into that trap for being among mortals too long.
The next thing I’d say is that the final judgment isn’t merely about what we did in as few years we were here, but about who we were.
Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world. —Alma 34:34
By the end of this life we have a certain spirit that defines who we are. The differences in the three kingdoms are those who don’t really want to do good works, but will do so if forced; those who are willing to do good works – as long as it doesn’t take too much effort, and those who continuously seek out ways to do more good works as agents unto themselves. This trait is not one that changes after the resurrection.
Knowledge may be learned. Understanding may be obtained. But the attitudes and motivations of the spirit upon resurrection with regard to obedience to God do not change. That is why progression simply will not be possible no matter how God set things up. He will never remove our agency. It is we who are preventing our own progression, not God.
So, take the time to repent as often as possible. Choose the right, and do what is right. And when you don’t, repent again and start over. Press forward with a steadfastness in Christ. Love God and love your neighbor. Be valiant in your testimony of Christ. And feast upon the words of Christ to guide you along life’s journey. And in all things follow the Lord and listen to the voice of the Holy Ghost.
Gramps
so if there is no eternal progression then some of us have no hope for an eternal family. My children have all went far from the church, and if they don’t repent on earth, then there is no hope. what’s the point of obtaining the celestial kingdom without your family with you?
Holly,
See the Comment Section on Gramps’ post (Is it possible to progress from one kingdom to
another?) dated Jan. 05, 2011 (the address is https://askgramps.org/is-it-possible-to-progress-from-one-kingdom-to-another). There are many general authorities who adamantly and passionately
claim(ed) (and be it known that their claims are only opinions, not official doctrine) that there is no progression between kingdoms. However, there are many general authorities who spoke (their
statements are also only opinions, not official doctrine) in support of progression from lower kingdoms (telestial and terrestrial) to the celestial kingdom.
One must remember that when we die we go to spirit paradise or spirit prison to await final judgment and resurrection. There is an opportunity in spirit prison for repentance (think of the tens of billions of people who have lived and died without an opportunity to have the Gospel preached to them let alone accept it and live it fully). Without question, a person is much better off repenting and living the Gospel in this life than to wait for the spirit world to start repenting for a variety of reasons I won’t go into here. Are your children lost forever? Here is a quote from J. Reuben Clark that might help:
I am not a strict constructionalist, believing that we seal our eternal progress by what we do here. It is my belief that God will save all of His children that he can: and while, if we live unrighteously here, we shall not go to the other side in the same status, so to speak, as those who lived righteously; nevertheless, THE UNRIGHTEOUS WILL HAVE THEIR CHANCE, AND IN THE EONS OF THE
ETERNITIES THAT ARE TO FOLLOW, THEY, TOO, MAY CLIMB TO THE DESTINIES TO WHICH THEY WHO ARE RIGHTEOUS AND SERVE GOD, HAVE CLIMBED TO THOSE ETERNITIES THAT ARE TO COME. (Church News, p. 3 , 23 April 1960; capitalization added by me.)
Some may take issue with this statement and say it is not official doctrine or wasn’t said in a
general conference, etc. Well, with all due respect to such, the statements like those of Elder McConkie in his “The Seven Deadly Heresies” address/talk aren’t official doctrine and
weren’t said in general conference either.
It seems consistent with both the justice and mercy of God to not have one’s eternal fate sealed merely
by the experiences and choices made in this (for many people, very short) earth life alone. And even then, there are at least opinions by church leaders that progression from one kingdom to the next is possible.
The answer to whether your or anyone else’s wayward children are lost forever if they don’t repent in this life will in the end depend on your children. Wayward children will have to choose to live the laws that govern the celestial kingdom in order to enter the celestial kingdom, dwell therein, and partake of eternal life and exaltation. If wayward children choose not to do this, knowing full well that they are rejecting the greater glory and opportunity made available to them in mortal life and again in the spirit world, then the Father will give them as much as they are willing to accept and they will enter into the telestial or terrestrial kingdom. I am sure EVERY effort will be spent by our Heavenly Father and Mother to steer all of us, Their wayward children, back to them, both in this life and the next. Only when all Their efforts have been exhausted and wayward children still refuse to obey and put forth effort to repent and progress will they (unrepentant/wayward children) be assigned to the lower kingdoms. Where else can they go? The unrepentant would be more miserable living in the celestial kingdom with exalted Heavenly Parents than they would be dwelling in a lower kingdom apart from Them, so there has to be a separate place (kingdom) for them.
In closing, a wise man once told me “there is a lot more hope in the Plan of Salvation than we sometimes allow ourselves to accept and believe”. Don’t give up hope, Holly (or anyone else for that matter). God be with you as you go through this trial in your life.
Ultimately, the Church’s official position in regards to the possibility of progression between kingdoms is that it has NO OFFICIAL DOCTRINE ON THE MATTER. Unless a new and official statement or declaration (not just some well thought-out and argued opinion) has come out since 1965, the church’s official statement is below:
Secretary to the First Presidency in a 1952 letter; and again in 1965
The brethren direct me to say that THE CHURCH HAS NEVER ANNOUNCED A DEFINITE DOCTRINE UPON THIS POINT. Some of the brethren have held the view that it was possible in the course of progression to advance from one glory to another, invoking the principle of eternal progression; others of the brethren have taken the opposite view. But as stated, THE CHURCH HAS NEVER ANNOUNCED A DEFINITE DOCTRINE ON THIS POINT (capitalization added by me).
It is not as cut and dry as you present it to be. As the official statement says, there are brethren who say it is possible (and not just “possible”, but a reality) and those who (adamantly) say it is a false doctrine. Well, if some say it is possible or even a reality and others call it a “deadly heresy”, who in the world are we supposed to believe? Whose statement or declaration are we supposed to trust? I am sure both sides of the debate would claim they were inspired by the Holy Ghost, but how can that be? The Holy Ghost is a bearer of truth not confusion? The inquirer after truth should take any statement on the matter with a gran of salt.
Gramps, I will say that I I love your closing paragraph and urge all who read it to consider it inspired: “Take the time to repent as often as possible. Choose the right, and do what is right. And when you don’t, repent again and start over. Press forward with a steadfastness in Christ. Love God and love your neighbor. Be valiant in your testimony of Christ. And feast upon the words of Christ to guide you along life’s journey. And in all things follow the Lord and listen to the voice of the Holy Ghost.” If we will all do these things we won’t have to worry about the need to progress from a lower kingdom to a higher one- we will all end up in the Celestial Kingdom when we are resurrected.
Amen
There’s no official doctrine, but there’s a lot of interesting things that have been said by prophets and apostles. Here’s a quote from The Articles of Faith, by James E. Talmage, which is sold in the Church Distribution Center and is approved as one of the books that all missionaries can take, read, and use on their missions:
“It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God’s plan of eternal progression, advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for. But if the recipients of a lower glory be enabled to advance, surely the intelligences of higher rank will not be stopped in their progress; and thus we may conclude, that degrees and grades will ever characterize the kingdoms of our God. Eternity is progressive; perfection is relative; the essential feature of God’s living purpose is its associated power of eternal increase.”
Lecture XXII subparagraph 25.
If a family is sealed in this life, the parents are as faithful as possible, and one child decides to go wayward in such a way that they would end up in the Telestial Kingdom, would that statement by Joseph Smith/Orson Whitney not apply to them?
As you quoted from “The Articles of Faith”
“Eternity is progressive; perfection is relative; the essential feature of God’s living purpose is its associated power of eternal increase.”
Lecture XXII subparagraph 25
The Atonement is eternal, infinite, and custom tailored to our individual and collective needs.
I understand it this way- What we do eventually becomes who we are. That is why we are commanded to repent, and to repent means to “turn back” (see https://www.lds.org/ensign/1988/08/the-meaning-of-repentance?lang=eng) If I act a certain way, I am not going to eventually be living in the Telestial or Terrestrial kingdom and trying to get up a notch. I will be where my spirit has progressed, or been built to be. I progress my spirit in this life through free agency- I choose to receive ordinances, make and keep sacred covenants, repent, and endure to the end. When all is said and done, I will go where my spirit can be happy, that’s why its called the plan of happiness!
Good description.
This doctrine is so mean and cruel…this is one reason I have a difficult time with the LDS religion. It’s depressing and demoralizing for people who just can’t seem to keep the commands as good as someone else. There are many people who are LDS that grew up with Parents who indoctrinated them into the religion and lived by the book…I didn’t have that role model. Plus people are born with different traits…to put everyone in these categories in just wrong.
Hi Wax,
If what the church taught is what you state, then yes it would be cruel and mean. However in my opinnion the church doesn’t teach this, it teaches that we must do our best to follow the commandments, but in the end we are judged by what is in our hearts. Different people in the church like to emphasize “obedience.” But The actual church doctrine is that Christ saves all mortals, but exalts the repentent sinner. This is scriptural, this is taught by our prophets and in our manuals. I think the greatest things we can be obedient to is 1) to love god 2) to love others 3) to repent and strive to do better. There is another scripture that says to endure to the end. That scripture says to me to never give up on repentance and striving to do better. Humans will never reach perfection. It is through Jesus Christ that we may receive perfection in the next life, if our hearts are good and humble and striving – he will make up the difference. This is what I have learned in the LDS faith over my 50+ mortal years.
Christ is key to everything!
If the atonement is real and you are doing the very best you can then why wouldn’t you go to the highest degree of glory…
I just came across this discussion. I just wanted to add some thoughts to remember. We are not judged the moment we die. If we were so many on this earth would be lost. They have never had the chance to hear the gospel. So if they will have a chance to learn why then wouldn’t we all have a chance to learn and grow? No, that is not an excuse to put off the day of your repentance, but for those who still have hope for their family members to return to the Lord I say there is still hope. I think there will be a lot going on until the final judgement day, we still have to have the millennium before that. That seems like a lot of time to learn and grow.